Improving Community Health: Technical Concerns

[belkinsa]

Since it was requested in the other thread, this is where we discuss the technical concerns of the community and why/how they don’t help.

Mods, feel free to move some of the posts from the other to this one, if you can. Thanks!

[Rodhos]

First concern: Launchpad is old

@gsilvapt

LP is another thing that should addressed. LP is old, out-fashioned and uses its own version control software, which is not that great and git is the standard. That just increases the barriers to contribute to anything in LP.

The eternal argument is that no one can build a better one or implement features to improve it. I know we cannot simply move to GitHub or GitLab but LP drives people away with its utterly non-practical interface. Still, LP is a problem in my perspective.

[Rodhos]

Use the profile section of LP account.

@wxl

My people-friendly solution to wiki profiles was to put them in the profile section of your Launchpad account. No version control or terminal interface required. Just go to your account, click the edit button, enter some text, hit the save button. You’ve probably already done this.

[belkinsa]

It could work but what about the testimonials? How would they be added from other members?

[wxl]

Oh heck. Yeah I guess that’s a thing. My experience, though, is that rarely do testimonials have much weight in determining membership. The motto has always been “sustained, significant contributions.” Those can be verified through testimonials, but ultimately the work should be obvious. I can’t think of a case where an applicant’s membership was was based largely on their testimonials.

[belkinsa]

Maybe for the ones who can upload code, yes. But, what about the people-based ones? But this coming someone who is mostly people-based? But I guess the question comes to how many are people-based rather than those who can upload code.

[ian-weisser]

@belkinsa

But, what about the people-based ones?

I am people-based. and had no problem documenting and quantifying many of my contributions in UbuntuForums, Brainstorm, etc., for Ubuntu membership. All those platforms have tools to quantify involvement already (Discourse does also). Some platforms, like IRC and LoCo, lack such tools…but those contributions seem covered by the testimonials.

I’m not seeing a significant technical barrier to membership application. I do see barriers to entry and to contribution…they look to me the same people-problems (not technical-problems) that book clubs and railroad clubs have, too.

[wxl]

@ian-weisser

Some platforms, like IRC and LoCo, lack such tools…

I guess there’s IRC logs. One could always link to a particularly memorable support response or something.

For LoCos, I guess it would be a matter of linking to information about that event, perhaps an announcement or something, or better yet, the blog post of the results.

I do see barriers to entry and to contribution…they look to me the same people-problems (not technical-problems) that book clubs and railroad clubs have, too.

We should probably move this to the other thread, but could you enumerate what you see to be the problems?

[belkinsa]

@ian-weisser

I am people-based. and had no problem documenting and quantifying many of my contributions in UbuntuForums, Brainstorm, etc., for Ubuntu membership. All those platforms have tools to quantify involvement already (Discourse does also). Some platforms, like IRC and LoCo, lack such tools…but those contributions seem covered by the testimonials.

I do understand how Discourse can keep track if it’s through the summary and activity from the user profiles. Does is also apply to the user groups that the system has?

[ian-weisser]

No group-tracking that I’m aware of.

[Rodhos]

How to improve the Wiki.
Problems:

1. Lack of contributors
2. Lack of organization (tags, languages and templates)
3. It’s difficult to get edit permissions.

Solutions:

1. Call for contributors. Do you want to help Ubuntu? We need help here and here and here…
2. Getting closer to what Wikipedia does.
3. Accept anyone that had signed the code of conduct and allow the community council or someone else than just Popey to accept applicants.

[gsilvapt]

@Rodhos

Call for contributors. Do you want to help Ubuntu? We need help here and here and here…

This is done already, actually. The problem, from where I see it, actually how outdated the documentation is, and its often too much. The wiki still refers to dead projects, recommend reaching to dead channels and to people that are no longer active. I know maintaining documentation is definitely a challenge but I think Ubuntu’s level is below acceptable.

Things outdated and lacking mentorship of any sort leads to lack of contributors, IMO. That’s what we should try to fix first and things should snowball appropriately.

PS: Only under specific conditions can users edit the wiki. So that is already done as well. We had to do that before due to spamming boots we were experiencing.

[Rodhos]

@gsilvapt

The wiki still refers to dead projects, recommend reaching to dead channels and to people that are no longer active.

Let’s create a bot that warns about dead links and put a tag on top of the page.

@gsilvapt

PS: Only under specific conditions can users edit the wiki. So that is already done as well. We had to do that before due to spamming boots we were experiencing.

I know but at the moment only Popey is accepting new contributors and some of them have been waiting years despite they meet all the requirements.

[gsilvapt]

@Rodhos

Let’s create a bot that warns about dead links and put a tag on top of the page.

That is exactly the problem. The links are active, everything seems working fine but it isn’t.
Process’ documentation gone outdated, project and other similar informational pages do not contain relevant information anymore and it is not a matter of checking whether or not they return 404 or not. Is a matter of contacting people and eventually knowing no one is responsible for the projects anymore or the fact that no one has time to contribute and mentor.

Edit: Kubuntu/GettingInvolved/Development - Ubuntu Wiki This page is the best example I can show you. Packaging/Coding is the only skill I can actually be useful, at least technically speaking (I’m a software developer IRL). I never was able to overcome the barrier of contributing to packaging because people just lack time. You do not have updated resources either. That guide above, simply forwards you to 10-year old resources. Although some contents are still relevant, I’ll assure you that most are not because things are no longer the way they were when they wrote the documentation.

Edit 2: _If you think that is because it is about Kubuntu and they have their own wiki, then there’s this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/GettingStarted_

Ultimately, I think that is the main issue. We lack mentors and managers that are responsible for being facilitators. Throughout the years, these have been regular contributors only. Since we are losing contributors, they stopped having time to do both.

But again, we are only limited to what Canonical lets the community do. For that purpose, investing time and efforts in “smaller” distributions like Lubuntu or Kubuntu might actually be a better option because they are more independent than us, have their own governance body and things are healthy at the moment. They might have their own issues, sure, but at least they have more activity than us.

[wxl]

@gsilvapt

Kubuntu/GettingInvolved/Development - Ubuntu Wiki This page is the best example I can show you.

Funny thing about this:

1. Kubuntu has moved their wiki. Obviously not ALL of their pages redirect to the new one but check out Kubuntu - Ubuntu Wiki and then see where you end up.
2. The best mentorship I have ever had has been from the Kubuntu folks. Their wiki pages are a nice supplement, but it’s their actual work with people that made a difference. I’ve had IRC chats and video conferences and all sorts of things.

we are losing contributors

Are we? I would say in relation to Lubuntu that’s not the case.

we are only limited to what Canonical lets the community do

There is no reason we couldn’t collectively decide to do something different, regardless of Canonical’s opinion.

[gsilvapt]

Perhaps the Kubuntu page was a poor example because I wasn’t targeting Kubuntu specifically. The problem is that outdated pages is still a thing throughout the entire Wiki, even for Ubuntu pages. Note that Ubuntu’s MOTU page shows resources from 2009 and such. 10 year old materials…

I’m afraid we are not talking about the same communities I was always referring to Ubuntu and not Kubuntu or Lubuntu. Ubuntu might be losing technical contributors. I cannot say anything about the other two communities.

Regarding our possible dependency, I don’t think you can have technical people working freely on the distribution when thereś a mother company that decides everything. Perhaps Kubuntu/Lubuntu is different for the obvious reasons but I’m afraid that does not apply to Ubuntu. Perhaps in some areas in doesn’t make a difference (LoCos, events, wiki & docs, and so on) but in other does (QA, packaging, development, etc).

[wxl]

@gsilvapt

The problem is that outdated pages is still a thing throughout the entire Wiki, even for Ubuntu pages.

And I think there’s two reasons for that:

1. Projects died.
2. The wiki is really difficult to work with (often failing to load properly) and frustrated folks stopped bothering with it.

I’m afraid we are not talking about the same communities I was always referring to Ubuntu and not Kubuntu or Lubuntu.

Well, and see, that right there is where I have a problem. Kubuntu and Lubuntu are Ubuntu. Without Ubuntu, they simply don’t exist. There are technical decisions that are made on core Ubuntu pieces that ultimately affect the flavors regardless of their opinions otherwise (Simon hates Snaps and tried to have them abolished from Lubuntu to no avail). This is a meeting place for Ubuntu folks, as is AskUbuntu and Ubuntu Forums and IRC and etc. We’re all part of the same community.

Ubuntu might be losing technical contributors.

That is exactly what I was asking about. Are we (Ubuntu as a whole) losing technical contributors? Pretty much all of the folks I remember from the beginning are still at it.

Regarding our possible dependency, I don’t think you can have technical people working freely on the distribution when thereś a mother company that decides everything.

I think this depends. If it’s removing Snaps from an ISO or supporting a different architecture no one else does, probably not. If it’s starting up a new wiki somewhere, I don’t think anyone’s going to complain if we find a workable solution and start using it.

Perhaps in some areas in doesn’t make a difference (LoCos, events, wiki & docs, and so on) but in other does (QA, packaging, development, etc).

Well, yeah, I think we’re going to still end up using Launchpad to track bugs. That’s probably everyone’s biggest complaint, but it works well with the tools we have (ubuntu-bug) and that’s an important thing from the user side of things. And we’re still going to adhere to the Debian Packaging Guidelines (at least assuming the Snaps don’t take over everything). And we’re still, hopefully, going to send our patches upstream. But none of that seems particularly bad. Or does it?

[chanath]

@wxl

Well, and see, that right there is where I have a problem. Kubuntu and Lubuntu are Ubuntu.

I don’t think so. Ubuntu is Ubuntu with one DE, the others are derivatives – derived from --officially accepted remixes with other DEs. Too much fragmentation. Ubuntu should’ve let all of them be remixes, without bringing them in as “derivatives.” They take the community away, how small or big it is (or was). Now, Ubuntu is only derivatives.

[chanath]

Considering the community and the future, something to be thought about.

[valorie-zimmerman]

If Kubuntu was no longer part of Ubuntu, I would not be either. My contribution to Ubuntu is through Kubuntu, even when I’m representing at a conference as a K/Ubuntu member. Most of the people who come to help out at both SeaGL and LinuxFestNorthWest are also flavor folks. Some Ubuntu people walk by and greet us, but they do not stay and help.

That did not use to be the case, when we still had a Pacific Northwest Ubuntu LoCo. The breakup of that group seemed to atomize everyone, unfortunately.

Removing the flavors would remove much of the active Ubuntu community. I doubt the Kubuntu team would stay together as a remix; we’d just coalesce around KDE neon. I hope that does not happen.