libmpg123-0 is needed for MP3 support in Wine for several games, like: TES III: Morrowind, TES IV: Oblivion, F.E.A.R.
Thanks; thereās no need to enumerate here the individual libraries that are dependencies of wine, they are already included.
Hi Vorlon,
I just added the hpcups 3.19.1 driver using āadd printerā I did not download it from some external source. So perhaps this is not āa packageā but part of a package and is included in printer-driver-hpcups.
here is the list made with dpkg -l '*:i386':
~$ dpkg -l ā*:i386ā
GewĆ¼nscht=Unbekannt/Installieren/R=Entfernen/P=VollstƤndig Lƶschen/Halten
| Status=Nicht/Installiert/Config/U=Entpackt/halb konFiguriert/
Halb installiert/Trigger erWartet/Trigger anhƤngig
|/ Fehler?=(kein)/R=Neuinstallation notwendig (Status, Fehler: GROSS=schlecht)
||/ Name Version Architektur Beschreibung
++Ā±==========================-============================-============-======================================================================
ii gcc-9-base:i386 9.1.0-2ubuntu2~19.04 i386 GCC, the GNU Compiler Collection (base package)
ii libatomic1:i386 9.1.0-2ubuntu2~19.04 i386 support library providing __atomic built-in functions
ii libbsd0:i386 0.9.1-2 i386 utility functions from BSD systems - shared library
ii libc6:i386 2.29-0ubuntu2 i386 GNU C Library: Shared libraries
ii libdrm-amdgpu1:i386 2.4.97-1ubuntu1 i386 Userspace interface to amdgpu-specific kernel DRM services ā runtime
ii libdrm-intel1:i386 2.4.97-1ubuntu1 i386 Userspace interface to intel-specific kernel DRM services ā runtime
ii libdrm-nouveau2:i386 2.4.97-1ubuntu1 i386 Userspace interface to nouveau-specific kernel DRM services ā runtime
ii libdrm-radeon1:i386 2.4.97-1ubuntu1 i386 Userspace interface to radeon-specific kernel DRM services ā runtime
ii libdrm2:i386 2.4.97-1ubuntu1 i386 Userspace interface to kernel DRM services ā runtime
ii libedit2:i386 3.1-20181209-1 i386 BSD editline and history libraries
ii libelf1:i386 0.176-1 i386 library to read and write ELF files
ii libexpat1:i386 2.2.6-1ubuntu0.19.5 i386 XML parsing C library - runtime library
ii libffi6:i386 3.2.1-9 i386 Foreign Function Interface library runtime
ii libgcc1:i386 1:9.1.0-2ubuntu2~19.04 i386 GCC support library
ii libgl1:i386 1.1.1-0ubuntu1 i386 Vendor neutral GL dispatch library ā legacy GL support
ii libgl1-mesa-dri:i386 19.0.8-0ubuntu0~19.04.1 i386 free implementation of the OpenGL API ā DRI modules
ii libgl1-mesa-glx:i386 19.0.8-0ubuntu0~19.04.1 i386 transitional dummy package
ii libglapi-mesa:i386 19.0.8-0ubuntu0~19.04.1 i386 free implementation of the GL API ā shared library
ii libglvnd0:i386 1.1.1-0ubuntu1 i386 Vendor neutral GL dispatch library
ii libglx-mesa0:i386 19.0.8-0ubuntu0~19.04.1 i386 free implementation of the OpenGL API ā GLX vendor library
ii libglx0:i386 1.1.1-0ubuntu1 i386 Vendor neutral GL dispatch library ā GLX support
ii libgpg-error0:i386 1.35-1 i386 GnuPG development runtime library
ii libidn2-0:i386 2.0.5-1 i386 Internationalized domain names (IDNA2008/TR46) library
ii libllvm8:i386 1:8-3 i386 Modular compiler and toolchain technologies, runtime library
ii libnvidia-compute-430:i386 430.50-0ubuntu0.19.04.1~gpu0 i386 NVIDIA libcompute package
ii libnvidia-decode-430:i386 430.50-0ubuntu0.19.04.1~gpu0 i386 NVIDIA Video Decoding runtime libraries
ii libnvidia-encode-430:i386 430.50-0ubuntu0.19.04.1~gpu0 i386 NVENC Video Encoding runtime library
ii libnvidia-fbc1-430:i386 430.50-0ubuntu0.19.04.1~gpu0 i386 NVIDIA OpenGL-based Framebuffer Capture runtime library
ii libnvidia-gl-430:i386 430.50-0ubuntu0.19.04.1~gpu0 i386 NVIDIA OpenGL/GLX/EGL/GLES GLVND libraries and Vulkan ICD
ii libnvidia-ifr1-430:i386 430.50-0ubuntu0.19.04.1~gpu0 i386 NVIDIA OpenGL-based Inband Frame Readback runtime library
ii libpciaccess0:i386 0.14-1 i386 Generic PCI access library for X
ii libsensors5:i386 1:3.5.0-3ubuntu1 i386 library to read temperature/voltage/fan sensors
ii libstdc++6:i386 9.1.0-2ubuntu2~19.04 i386 GNU Standard C++ Library v3
ii libtinfo6:i386 6.1+20181013-2ubuntu2 i386 shared low-level terminfo library for terminal handling
ii libudev1:i386 240-6ubuntu5.7 i386 libudev shared library
ii libunistring2:i386 0.9.10-1ubuntu2 i386 Unicode string library for C
ii libx11-6:i386 2:1.6.7-1 i386 X11 client-side library
ii libx11-xcb1:i386 2:1.6.7-1 i386 Xlib/XCB interface library
ii libxau6:i386 1:1.0.8-1 i386 X11 authorisation library
ii libxcb-dri2-0:i386 1.13.1-2 i386 X C Binding, dri2 extension
ii libxcb-dri3-0:i386 1.13.1-2 i386 X C Binding, dri3 extension
ii libxcb-glx0:i386 1.13.1-2 i386 X C Binding, glx extension
ii libxcb-present0:i386 1.13.1-2 i386 X C Binding, present extension
ii libxcb-sync1:i386 1.13.1-2 i386 X C Binding, sync extension
ii libxcb1:i386 1.13.1-2 i386 X C Binding
ii libxdamage1:i386 1:1.1.4-3 i386 X11 damaged region extension library
ii libxdmcp6:i386 1:1.1.2-3 i386 X11 Display Manager Control Protocol library
ii libxext6:i386 2:1.3.3-1 i386 X11 miscellaneous extension library
ii libxfixes3:i386 1:5.0.3-1 i386 X11 miscellaneous āfixesā extension library
ii libxinerama1:i386 2:1.1.4-2 i386 X11 Xinerama extension library
ii libxshmfence1:i386 1.3-1 i386 X shared memory fences - shared library
ii libxss1:i386 1:1.2.3-1 i386 X11 Screen Saver extension library
ii libxxf86vm1:i386 1:1.1.4-1 i386 X11 XFree86 video mode extension library
ii steam:i386 1:1.0.0.54+repack-5ubuntu1 i386 Valveās Steam digital software delivery system
ii zlib1g:i386 1:1.2.11.dfsg-1ubuntu2 i386 compression library - runtime
Iām pretty sure this means that theyāll be maintaining all of the necessary i386 NVIDIA libs (i.e. 430 & 435)
What about legacy drivers? There are laptop & desktop GPUs out there that isnāt compatible with newer drivers, like my laptop which is compatible up to version 390.
I just uploaded wine-development 4.14-1 to Debian unstable. libwine-development:i386 recommends or suggests those gstreamer plugins.
I take it you also consider āSuggests:ā!?
Besides that I hope you take care of the whole alternative graphic stacks (NVIDIA), that Wine doesnāt depend on directly or just as an alternative dependency. I canāt tell/test which packages exactly are needed here.
Finally, you may consider to also parse the upstream provided packages, especially āwinehq-stagingā. This has a few additional dependencies. See https://wiki.winehq.org/Ubuntu for download instructions.
Greets
jre
Uhm , where is Vulkan loader? libvulkan1:i386 and mesa-vulkan-drivers:i386
That is needed since D9VK relies on it for 32 bit games ( d3d9 games on Vulkan ) and it is also needed by some rare d3d11 32 bit games too for dxvk.
1 Like
Thanks, Iāve uploaded wine-development to Ubuntu with the added recommends/suggests cherry-picked, since we are post-feature freeze and would not normally take a new upstream release from Debian at this point.
Regarding consideration of Suggests, no we donāt, and actually I uncovered that I was failing to consider Recommends either which Iāve never corrected - which now raises the number of known source packages from 199 to 227.
I donāt think that we should commit to maintaining all of the source packages that are linked via suggests, given that suggests are not installed by default; but Iām happy for us to include those by default in our initial list of source packages for i386 and continue providing them on a best-effort basis.
Yes, nvidia is mentioned in the list of top-level library requirements (in the form of libnvidia*-418; and yes, this is shorthand for continuing to maintain all earlier and later nvidia versions that are supported on amd64, but we specifically DONāT commit to supporting any particular version on i386 since we may drop support for a particular driver version on both amd64 and i386).
vulkan isnāt a top-level requirement but is part of the set of dependencies that weāve captured, being pulled in via wine. It will remain in the list as long as wine pulls it in.
1 Like
I regularly use a lot of 32-bit software that will likely never be updated again (primarily games), so this is very relevant & quite an important issue to me. In addition, most of the software and games I use are installed separately from the repositories/package management system, from places such as GOG, so manually identifying and installing missing dependencies is something Iāve had to deal with for a while.
It eventually got to the point that I created a meta-package to quickly install most commonly required dependencies that Iāve encountered, with a view to largely eliminating issues arising due to missing dependencies & getting most externally installed software to ājust workā (this package is intended for Linux Mint as thatās what I personally use, but itās basically Ubuntu at its core - the package used to install just fine on Ubuntu too but the ia32-libs meta-package it ādependsā on was removed from Ubuntuās repositories some time ago). The meta-package can be found here.
Anyway, according to dpkg -l ā*:i386ā there are about 260 i386 packages installed on my system. Running:
$ dpkg -l ā*:i386ā | tail -n+6 | awk ā{print $2}ā
gives me this list:
crossover:i386
gcc-8-base:i386
gtk2-engines:i386
gtk2-engines-murrine:i386
gtk2-engines-oxygen:i386
gtk2-engines-pixbuf:i386
gvfs:i386
gvfs-libs:i386
ibus-gtk:i386
libacl1:i386
libaio1:i386
libao4:i386
libasn1-8-heimdal:i386
libasound2:i386
libasound2-plugins:i386
libasyncns0:i386
libatk1.0-0:i386
libatomic1:i386
libattr1:i386
libaudio2:i386
libavahi-client3:i386
libavahi-common-data:i386
libavahi-common3:i386
libblkid1:i386
libbsd0:i386
libbz2-1.0:i386
libc6:i386
libcaca0:i386
libcairo2:i386
libcanberra-gtk-module:i386
libcanberra-gtk0:i386
libcanberra0:i386
libcap2:i386
libcapi20-3:i386
libcg:i386
libcggl:i386
libcom-err2:i386
libcroco3:i386
libcups2:i386
libcupsimage2:i386
libcurl3-gnutls:i386
libcurl4:i386
libdatrie1:i386
libdb5.3:i386
libdbus-1-3:i386
libdbus-glib-1-2:i386
libdrm-amdgpu1:i386
libdrm-intel1:i386
libdrm-nouveau2:i386
libdrm-radeon1:i386
libdrm2:i386
libedit2:i386
libelf1:i386
libexif12:i386
libexpat1:i386
libffi6:i386
libflac8:i386
libfluidsynth1:i386
libfontconfig1:i386
libfreetype6:i386
libgail-common:i386
libgail18:i386
libgcc1:i386
libgck-1-0:i386
libgconf-2-4:i386
libgcr-base-3-1:i386
libgcrypt20:i386
libgd3:i386
libgdk-pixbuf2.0-0:i386
libgettextpo0:i386
libgl1:i386
libgl1-mesa-dri:i386
libgl1-mesa-glx:i386
libglapi-mesa:i386
libglib2.0-0:i386
libglu1-mesa:i386
libglvnd0:i386
libglx-mesa0:i386
libglx0:i386
libgmp10:i386
libgnutls30:i386
libgpg-error0:i386
libgphoto2-6:i386
libgphoto2-port12:i386
libgraphite2-3:i386
libgsm1:i386
libgssapi-krb5-2:i386
libgssapi3-heimdal:i386
libgstreamer-plugins-base1.0-0:i386
libgstreamer1.0-0:i386
libgtk2.0-0:i386
libharfbuzz0b:i386
libhcrypto4-heimdal:i386
libheimbase1-heimdal:i386
libheimntlm0-heimdal:i386
libhogweed4:i386
libhx509-5-heimdal:i386
libibus-1.0-5:i386
libice6:i386
libicu60:i386
libidn2-0:i386
libieee1284-3:i386
libjack-jackd2-0:i386
libjbig0:i386
libjpeg-turbo8:i386
libjpeg62:i386
libjpeg8:i386
libjson-c3:i386
libk5crypto3:i386
libkeyutils1:i386
libkrb5-26-heimdal:i386
libkrb5-3:i386
libkrb5support0:i386
liblcms2-2:i386
libldap-2.4-2:i386
libllvm8:i386
libltdl7:i386
liblz4-1:i386
liblzma5:i386
libmad0:i386
libmikmod3:i386
libmng2:i386
libmodplug1:i386
libmount1:i386
libmpg123-0:i386
libncurses5:i386
libncursesw5:i386
libnettle6:i386
libnghttp2-14:i386
libnspr4:i386
libnss-mdns:i386
libnss3:i386
libodbc1:i386
libogg0:i386
libopenal1:i386
liborc-0.4-0:i386
libosmesa6:i386
libp11-kit0:i386
libpango-1.0-0:i386
libpangocairo-1.0-0:i386
libpangoft2-1.0-0:i386
libpcap0.8:i386
libpciaccess0:i386
libpcre3:i386
libpixman-1-0:i386
libpng16-16:i386
libpsl5:i386
libpulse-mainloop-glib0:i386
libpulse0:i386
libpulsedsp:i386
libqt4-dbus:i386
libqt4-declarative:i386
libqt4-designer:i386
libqt4-network:i386
libqt4-opengl:i386
libqt4-qt3support:i386
libqt4-script:i386
libqt4-scripttools:i386
libqt4-sql:i386
libqt4-svg:i386
libqt4-test:i386
libqt4-xml:i386
libqt4-xmlpatterns:i386
libqtcore4:i386
libqtdbus4:i386
libqtgui4:i386
libqtwebkit4:i386
libreadline7:i386
libroken18-heimdal:i386
librsvg2-2:i386
librsvg2-common:i386
librtmp1:i386
libsamplerate0:i386
libsane1:i386
libsasl2-2:i386
libsasl2-modules-db:i386
libsdl-image1.2:i386
libsdl-mixer1.2:i386
libsdl-net1.2:i386
libsdl-ttf2.0-0:i386
libsdl1.2debian:i386
libsdl2-2.0-0:i386
libsdl2-image-2.0-0:i386
libsdl2-mixer-2.0-0:i386
libsecret-1-0:i386
libselinux1:i386
libsensors4:i386
libslang2:i386
libsm6:i386
libsndfile1:i386
libsndio6.1:i386
libspeexdsp1:i386
libsqlite3-0:i386
libssl1.0.0:i386
libssl1.1:i386
libstdc++5:i386
libstdc++6:i386
libsystemd0:i386
libtasn1-6:i386
libtdb1:i386
libthai0:i386
libtheora0:i386
libtiff5:i386
libtinfo5:i386
libudev1:i386
libunistring2:i386
libusb-1.0-0:i386
libuuid1:i386
libv4l-0:i386
libv4lconvert0:i386
libvorbis0a:i386
libvorbisenc2:i386
libvorbisfile3:i386
libvulkan1:i386
libwayland-client0:i386
libwayland-cursor0:i386
libwayland-egl1:i386
libwebp6:i386
libwind0-heimdal:i386
libwrap0:i386
libx11-6:i386
libx11-xcb1:i386
libxau6:i386
libxaw7:i386
libxcb-dri2-0:i386
libxcb-dri3-0:i386
libxcb-glx0:i386
libxcb-present0:i386
libxcb-randr0:i386
libxcb-render0:i386
libxcb-shm0:i386
libxcb-sync1:i386
libxcb1:i386
libxcomposite1:i386
libxcursor1:i386
libxdamage1:i386
libxdmcp6:i386
libxext6:i386
libxfixes3:i386
libxft2:i386
libxi6:i386
libxinerama1:i386
libxkbcommon0:i386
libxml2:i386
libxmu6:i386
libxpm4:i386
libxrandr2:i386
libxrender1:i386
libxshmfence1:i386
libxslt1.1:i386
libxss1:i386
libxt6:i386
libxtst6:i386
libxxf86vm1:i386
mesa-vulkan-drivers:i386
ocl-icd-libopencl1:i386
odbcinst1debian2:i386
steam:i386
xaw3dg:i386
zlib1g:i386
1 Like
I have installed the script from https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~vorlon/+junk/get-i386/files on a 19.10 to be able to see the whole list of currently included 32 bit packages. And then started to go over my GOG libraries 32bit linux games.
I found that https://www.gog.com/game/shadowrun_hong_kong_extended_edition and https://www.gog.com/game/shadowrun_returns require apart from already added libraries
libqtgui4:i386 and its dependencies for the game editor. I verified that this in fact the case by trying to run the editor first without and then with libqtgui4:i386 and its dependencies installed. The games them self run without, but the editor is an important feature for some.
1 Like
Iām unable to install latest CrossOver version on Ubuntu 19.10:
$ sudo dpkg --add-architecture i386
$ sudo apt update
$ sudo apt install ./crossover_18.5.0-1.deb
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
Note, selecting 'crossover:i386' instead of './crossover_18.5.0-1.deb'
Some packages could not be installed. This may mean that you have
requested an impossible situation or if you are using the unstable
distribution that some required packages have not yet been created
or been moved out of Incoming.
The following information may help to resolve the situation:
The following packages have unmet dependencies:
crossover:i386 : PreDepends: multiarch-support:i386 but it is not installable
E: Unable to correct problems, you have held broken packages.
$ sudo apt install multiarch-support:i386
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
E: Unable to locate package multiarch-support:i386
$ gdebi ./crossover_18.5.0-1.deb
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
Reading state information... Done
This package is uninstallable
Dependency is not satisfiable: multiarch-support
The multiarch-support package is missed on 19.10.
It is very, very bad!
FIxed by downloading package from Disco:
wget http://mirrors.kernel.org/ubuntu/pool/main/g/glibc/multiarch-support_2.29-0ubuntu2_i386.deb
sudo apt install ./multiarch-support_2.29-0ubuntu2_i386.deb
sudo apt install ./crossover_18.5.0-1.deb
3 Likes
This is unrelated to the question of support for 32-bit packages. The multiarch-support package was a transitional package introduced for multiarch in 2011. The debhelper tool stopped emitting a dependency on multiarch-support in 2015, and the package has now been dropped from the glibc source package four years later. This is a change that has been made on all architectures. The issue here is that the ālatestā crossover deb is generating obsolete package dependencies and should be updated. I suggest you contact the vendor for support.
Iād appreciate it if you could test with the 64-bit timidity and report back. timidity provides only a program as an interface, not a shared library, so I canāt see any reason that this would have to be 32-bit.
If there is software that really requires 32-bit timidity then we would include it on the list, but we would still want to confirm first that itās actually necessary.
Iāve looked at this, and hterm has dependencies on obsolete libraries that are already not available in Ubuntu 19.10 (the last supported release of Ubuntu that contains libpng12-0 is xenial, Ubuntu 16.04). In addition, it depends on gtk2, which is still present today but which is obsoleted by gtk3 and not guaranteed to be shipped in Ubuntu 20.04 LTS.
We are certainly open to including these libraries on the list of those to keep available on i386. However, given that it appears these are not sufficient to enable hterm to run on Ubuntu 20.04 as it is, I donāt intend to add them to our list unless there is some other third-party application that theyāre sufficient for.
Thanks for checking. Based on this analysis, I believe there are no additional i386 libraries needed to support this case.
Thanks for this list! From your list, the following packages are not part of Ubuntu 19.10 (on amd64 or i386):
- crossover:i386
- libicu60:i386
- libjson-c3:i386
- libreadline7:i386
- libsensors4:i386
- libssl1.0.0:i386
The following packages are additionally not dependencies of your metapackage, so are either transitive dependencies or are manually installed. If you believe any of these are directly required by any of your 32-bit applications, please call them out separately (and please note that some of these, such as qt4, are likely to be obsolete on all architectures before 20.04 releases):
- gcc-8-base:i386
- gtk2-engines-murrine:i386
- gtk2-engines-oxygen:i386
- gtk2-engines-pixbuf:i386
- gtk2-engines:i386
- gvfs-libs:i386
- ibus-gtk:i386
- libacl1:i386
- libattr1:i386
- libcanberra-gtk-module:i386
- libcanberra-gtk0:i386
- libcanberra0:i386
- libcg:i386
- libdbus-glib-1-2:i386
- libgck-1-0:i386
- libgcr-base-3-1:i386
- libibus-1.0-5:i386
- libieee1284-3:i386
- libmng2:i386
- libncursesw5:i386
- libnghttp2-14:i386
- libnspr4:i386
- libpulse-mainloop-glib0:i386
- libpulsedsp:i386
- libqt4-dbus:i386
- libqt4-declarative:i386
- libqt4-designer:i386
- libqt4-network:i386
- libqt4-opengl:i386
- libqt4-qt3support:i386
- libqt4-script:i386
- libqt4-scripttools:i386
- libqt4-sql:i386
- libqt4-svg:i386
- libqt4-test:i386
- libqt4-xml:i386
- libqt4-xmlpatterns:i386
- libqtcore4:i386
- libqtdbus4:i386
- libqtgui4:i386
- libqtwebkit4:i386
- librtmp1:i386
- libsdl-ttf2.0-0:i386
- libsecret-1-0:i386
- libspeexdsp1:i386
- libstdc++5:i386
- libtdb1:i386
- libxaw7:i386
- libxcb-randr0:i386
- libxmu6:i386
- libxt6:i386
- libxtst6:i386
- odbcinst1debian2:i386
- xaw3dg:i386
That leaves an additional 9 packages on your list that are not currently whitelisted for i386 support in 20.04.
- libcggl:i386
- libcurl3-gnutls:i386
- libcurl4:i386
- libgconf-2-4:i386
- libnss-mdns:i386
- libnss3:i386
- libsane1:i386
- libxft2:i386
- mesa-vulkan-drivers:i386
Of these, I donāt see any reason you should need both libcurl3-gnutls and libcurl4, but theyāre also built from the same source package so itās no additional support burden.
And libcggl is part of nvidia-cg-toolkit, rather than part of the nvidia drivers package, which seems like an unlikely thing for a 32-bit app to depend on. Do you have an actual example of this library being used by a 32-bit app? (I donāt believe wine itself makes any use of this library.)
Altogether, this results in an additional 17 source packages when expanding dependencies. Iāll add these (minus libcggl, pending more information) to the list.
Qt4 is deprecated and is slated for removal from Ubuntu before the 20.04 release, as described at
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/qt4-x11/+bug/1757320. We therefore would not commit to making this available on either i386 or amd64 in 20.04.
ia32-libs is what I still get by using Mint 19. I need that library.
I know that the absence of libicu60 and libssl1.0.0 will cause breakages at least, not sure about the others (CrossOver was of course installed externally)
With the exceptions of CrossOver and Steam, every package in the list I posted was installed as a result of installing my common-libs-meta package. Many of those will have been installed by the ia32-libs meta-package, which mine includes as a dependency (I quickly set up a VM earlier to check & installing ia32-libs alone gets 217 of the packages I listed).
Iāll check the executables for what I currently have installed with ldd later, however itāll be far from exhaustive as I donāt keep everything installed all the time and I have a huge library going back years.
Personally I think itās best to err on the side of caution to reduce the likelihood of breakages - I remember how it was when I was a new user and kept running into issues due to missing dependencies; itās not a very good experience, especially when itās due to packages that are no longer available. Especially given the timing, when thereās likely to be a significant increase in new users trying Linux as support ends for Windows 7.
Some games need libcurl3-gnutls while others use libcurl4
Yes: Hotline Miami needs it at least, as does Trine and Trine 2 (although itās not listed as a requirement on their store pages). There may be others that need it as well.
I see and thanks for looking into this. Removing Qt4 probably also will give some proprietary 64bit programs problems, but I understand the removal when it is end of live upstream.
Would it be possible to keep the 32bit Qt libraries listed by me and adamhm as long as the 64bit are still around?