Call for participation: an ubuntu default theme lead by the community?

[frederik-f]

@didrocks @3v1n0 @jbicha
We (@madsrh @c-lobrano and me) decided to cancel the merge of that black menu PR for 18.10 and continue to discuss/work on it in the next weeks.

Reasons:

• code is too rushed, there are better ways to do this, than styling 90% of all gtk classes for popovers. The only element I styled “smart” are undershoots, with adding a new Boolean to the drawing function, we need something similar for all elements
• gtk2 is not fully tested though provided by carlo last evening
• we already found two apps which use a custom css which overwrites our popups leaving them with glitches (nothing to big, but still unfinished). Those custom changes adapt to the color variants of adwaita dark and light. Which have fully dark for headerbar/windows/popovers or fully light.

It’s just not enough time. Compared to other bigger changes where we had weeks and months to test and iron out issues this is a high risk
The current master is stable and beautiful.
Though I became a big fan of the idea. Better be safe than sorry and there is still plenty of time until 19.4.

We would like to keep this idea but with enough time to discuss and test.

Happy beta testing

[jaggers]

I started typing this in the icons PR, but then it was getting longer and longer, and I decided it was probably better to have the conversation here, rather than filling up a PR with general philosophical chat-chat.

Then we ask LO and the transmission people

Personally I think there are two possible pitches Yaru could make: one is “can we display your logo on a plain squircle button, to make it consistent with the rest of the UI?” and the other is “can we rework your logo to match the house style, which is a squircle incorporating a flat pictogram matching these guidelines?”

I would be disappointed if they said no to the first proposition, because it’s no different to masking, and (IMHO) only reasonable if apps police the pixels that are present in their icon, rather than what happens in the transparent part. I mean, I could end up with the Firefox icon surrounded by a squircle just because I have squircles on my wallpaper, lol.

But I’d be very surprised if they said yes to the second idea.

If that turns out to be the case I can understand their position. Suru is very stylised and would require radical changes to most logos/brands. Also, in the ideal “full Suru” scenario, we’d have icon masking anyway, which would mean uniform shape but not uniform style, and there’d be no impetus to redesign third party icons if they were all displayed in squircles.

As a Suru fan, seeing Suru versions of established brands is quite fun. I suppose it’s why people like those Pop! figurines from Funko. I’m not sure how I would react if a different distro did it. E.g., if a Linux distro had all neon icons, that would be a cool thing to make it stand out from the crowd. But if there was a neon Firefox and a neon Chromium, I’m not 100% sure it would feel like a major OS. It might come across more like a fun project to “pimp” everything on the desktop?

But, here are some further ideas for 19.04.

For the launcher, one option would be to have a generic launcher button for “default web browser” (which would be Suru). There are multiple ways this button could behave. The first time a new user presses this, it could say, “Your default browser is set to Firefox, but you can change this from settings” - or maybe it opens a little folder containing all the web browsers you have installed, with their normal icons. A full UI implementation of that second approach could involve “launcher folders”:

…but, less ambitiously, the Suru web button could take you to a folder in the Gnome overlay, or even just open the app grid with the search box pre-populated with the words “web browser” to act as a filter.

Obviously individual users would be free to take the button off the launcher and just “favourite” their preferred one, but that’s individual choice - you can only control out-of-the-box appearance.

There could also be a generic office icon that opens a folder containing LibreOffice, Things to Do, and any other office/productivity apps you have installed. Ditto for graphics: a generic Suru icon for “artwork” that opens a folder of GIMP, Inkscape and so on. I actually like this approach. It would circle back to the Gnome 2 style where apps are helpfully grouped, rather than displayed smartphone-style in alphabetical order. And it would give a pleasingly uniform Ubuntu launcher. EDIT: Also, this structure would help new users and give the launcher a clear USP over the existing “frequent” view in the shell.

Copyright prevents you reinventing, replacing or redrawing app logos, but I’m aware of no rule in copyright that says the only permissible way for the app to be launched, is to have users clicking on the logo for the app. I don’t think that would be enforceable. You can imagine a completely icon-free OS where you launch Firefox by choosing “Search the Web” on a dropdown menu, or typing the URL you want in a terminal-style window. So as long as no one is doctoring or reinventing the logo for third party apps, it’s possible to think creatively about how to make the visuals more uniform, and expose Suru icons as much as possible to the end user.

[didrocks]

@frederik-f

@didrocks @3v1n0 @jbicha

We (@madsrh @c-lobrano and me) decided to cancel the merge of that black menu PR for 18.10 and continue to discuss/work on it in the next weeks.

Sounds a sane decision to me. Thanks for trying to push it hard and keeping us informed

Today, I’ll cut a release of Yaru in cosmic without this then!

@ads20000

Speaking of this distinction, what exactly happens to 18.04 Yaru snap users who upgrade to 18.10, does Ubuntu somehow detect the snap and not install the Deb, or does it remove the snap and install the Deb?

18.04 users will be upgraded to the “ubuntu” session (instead the one with the communitheme snap), which will use the .deb version by default to ensure consistency.
I have created a new separate package communitheme-snap-session for developers and enthousiast users who still want to use the snap on that version (and so, people will have to install/reinstall it after upgrade).

[meetdilip]

Let us just put this into launcher with a link to the corresponding app. Since they are preset, Ubuntu developers can choose it works

[didrocks]

On behalf of the Yaru team, I’m happy to announce a new release to the stable channel of the communitheme snap and Yaru package in cosmic.

You can see the changes since latest upload to cosmic in https://github.com/ubuntu/yaru/blob/master/debian/changelog#L1, knowing that snap users got an additional release in between and so are already benefiting from some of those changes.

Hoping that you will all enjoy it, as usual, keep up the good work and let give us feedback on this thread!

This release is dedicated to @c-lobrano. We all hope you will get back in a wonderful state from your back surgery!

[jaggers]

I’ve been playing around with the launcher and app folders and here’s a slightly more detailed proposal for 19.04, which elaborates why I think it would be good for usability as well as visuals. It includes real screenshots from my own install rather than mockups.

Launcher

By default, my preferred out-of-the-box launcher only includes Suru icons. The Suru web browser icon checks the default browser and launches that. Right click options for the web browser icon could be: Change Default Browser; a small number of quick links (e.g., Google, Amazon, Youtube); and Edit Quick Links. That means the Suru web button is a feature rather than a purely cosmetic choice, and users may keep it on the launcher if they find custom quick links handy. EDIT for clarity: from the follow-up post below, “I wasn’t clear enough here - by ‘default web browser button’ I mean a shortcut to the default browser, which is Firefox out-of-the-box, but which the user would be free to change… I wasn’t suggesting Ubuntu could ship with its own browser.”

By default, the top icon should be the Welcome App and the bottom icon should be Help. I have no strong feelings about the rest. Of course, the user is free to remove the newbie-focussed icons and add non-Suru ones, but these out-of-the-box settings are attractive, uniform, and accessible to new users, with the Welcome App providing Ubuntu branding where established Linux users expect it:

Requirements on Ubuntu for this to work: a simple app for default web browser and the inclusion of the Welcome App at the top.

App Grid

The current approach of listing all apps in alphabetical order is a bit bewildering, and presenting a mix of Suru icons and non-Suru icons makes the experience feel more (rather than less) unstructured. My preferred out-of-the-box experience is to only have core apps, which should all have Suru icons, outside of folders - and third party apps with non-Suru icons in folders (I’ll explain below why I think this is also good for usability, rather than purely cosmetic).

I suggest three default folders for the first attempt at this: /Mozilla (Firefox and Thunderbird); /LibreOffice (Writer, Calc, etc.); and /MyApps, where the user’s installed apps go. The two company-themed folders will cause less confusion than thematic ones like /Web or /Office, because (e.g.) users who installed Chromium might look for it in /Web.

The forward slash is important because punctuation comes before letters in alphanumeric ordering, and this forces the folders to be grouped at the start of the app grid, rather than interspersed throughout. Any third party apps that aren’t Mozilla or LibreOffice (e.g., Transmission) can go in /MyApps to “get the ball rolling” for that folder.

I think it looks really polished:

/MyApps is a helpful name because it leads to an intuitive distinction between default apps that users might not be interested in, versus non-default ones that they choose to add and will look for immediately after. This represents a small usability improvement because users don’t have to scroll through a list of default apps like Tweaks, Language Settings, etc., to find apps they chose to install and intend to use. The extra click into a folder still represents a net efficiency, because the “All Apps” view should aspire for maximum clarity rather than minimum clicks (when the user wants the latter, Ubuntu offers two more efficient routes: the launcher and Gnome Shell’s Frequent lens). IMO, after just a few minutes playing around with folders on my own system, this is less formless and looks much nicer too, because it’s visually a lot more uniform.

Future iterations could be more ambitious and have /MyMedia, /MyGraphics, /MyGames and so on. The use of the “My” prefix means the user won’t be confused if core apps aren’t found in the obvious thematic folders. For instance: being core apps that ship with Ubuntu and therefore have Suru-style icons, Mahjongg, Mines and Aisleriot would appear outside folders rather than in /MyGames - but the concept of “My” (versus default) makes this seem considered rather than random.

Requirements on Ubuntu for this to work: a script to edit the dconf keys that control app folders in Gnome. The script should be triggered on first login and again each time the user installs a new app.

EDIT: Wishlist for/suggestions to Gnome devs: greater support and ease of use for people who want to manually edit app folders in the shell (drag n’ drop, click to rename folder, etc.).

So, if Ubuntu 19.04 adopted these suggestions, I think the desktop would be more user-friendly (especially if you progressed to multiple thematic folders for /My…) and have much better visual unity, with the Suru/non-Suru distinction being meaningful and attractive because it’s honoured throughout the UI.

I also feel that the new requirements on Ubuntu itself are very modest, because it’s one launcher app and one script to edit dconf keys when appropriate. Obviously I’m not a developer but I suspect (or should that be hope?!) that adding them to Ubuntu would be a small task and a small maintenance burden.

[didrocks]

Thanks for the detail write-up!

I must say I strongly disagree with the launcher selection being only driven by Suru icon inclusion or not. Also, maintaining another browser isn’t an option. There is some deal and trust with Mozilla that we can’t break. There is no “maintaining a simple web browser”. This is a critical piece, with a js engine, network layers, some millions of lines of code just to have an average browsing experience. We can’t also ask the security team to maintain 2 applications for the same functionality.

I think the same applies to the application grid, categories as functionalities makes sense, categories based on what kind of icons they have isn’t really IMHO.

I think the main driver for launcher selection should (as it was) be what users are going to use at first. On those, Firefox and Thunderbird should be near the top, even if we can’t have Suru icons IMHO.

Hopes that makes sense.

@mpt do you mind looking at the above proposal? ^

[jaggers]

@didrocks Thanks for the reply, and @mpt :

@didrocks

There is no “maintaining a simple web browser”.

Apologies, I wasn’t clear enough here - by “default web browser button” I mean a shortcut to the default browser, which is Firefox out-of-the-box, but which the user would be free to change That was probably the most contentious part of the suggestion anyway, but I wasn’t suggesting Ubuntu could ship with its own browser.

In terms of grouping apps based on what icon they have, I agree this would be nonsense, unless the apps have different icons for a meaningful reason, which reflects a genuine difference in category. In this case, it seems that default system apps are going to end up with Suru icons, and apps that the user chooses themselves will mostly or maybe completely have non-Suru icons, and (IMHO) it’s helpful to distinguish between those two classes. Also, one of the good things about Gnome app folders is you can see the icons inside them, and I think the key third party apps (Firefox and LibreOffice) are actually more instantly “findable” in the app grid screenshot above, rather than the default behaviour of being interspersed in the grid of default apps at “F” and “L”.

That was just offered as an outsider perspective/suggestion - obviously if it’s contentious then it won’t work for Ubuntu and I can always group my own apps as I like them.

EDIT: Correction in bold above.

[mpt]

@didrocks

@mpt do you mind looking at the above proposal? ^

@jaggers

presenting a mix of Suru icons and non-Suru icons makes the experience feel more (rather than less) unstructured.

I think this is exactly right. Whether or not you think squircle app icons are a good idea, what we have now is pretty much the worst possible proportion — where most of them are squircles, but highly prominent ones are not. Because then users get distracted trying to work out what’s special about the non-squircle ones. And sooner or later, they conclude that there isn’t anything special about them, it’s just that the Ubuntu people apparently weren’t organized enough.

However…

@jaggers

Launcher

By default, my preferred out-of-the-box launcher only includes Suru icons … The Suru web browser icon checks the default browser and launches that. Right click options for the web browser icon could be: Change Default Browser … I mean a shortcut to the default browser, which is Firefox out-of-the-box, but which the user would be free to change

One of the first bugs I ever reported about Ubuntu, way back in 2005, was about the settings menu for choosing your preferred Web browser. The menu included an option “Debian Sensible Browser”. The problem was, there was no such browser. It was a generic launcher for shell scripts to invoke, a technical detail, not something that would make any sense to end users.

This Suru web browser icon would be a similar oddity. A generic launcher, showing up only because of a technical detail, in this case a hypothetical inability to change Firefox’s icon. It would help with the icon shape consistency, but it would introduce three new problems:

• “If it opens Firefox, why isn’t it called Firefox?” People would spend much more time launching it than customizing it. That it was customizable would not be a good reason for obscuring the current selection.
• “If it opens Firefox, why does it look like Safari?” We‘d need an icon that was guessable, but did not look like iOS 6 Safari, nor infringe on any trademark.
• “Hmm, I’m not sure about this whole Ubuntu thing.” Using a generic browser icon would mean a first-time Ubuntu user would be much less likely to see any app on the screen that they recognize. That would be a big loss.

@jaggers

Of course, the user is free to remove the newbie-focussed icons and add non-Suru ones, but these out-of-the-box settings are attractive, uniform, and accessible to new users

Think about why you want the icons to be consistent. It’s a valid emotion, about elegance and harmony and things like that.

Now think about someone who adds an app, to the launcher, that has a non-Suru icon. They’ll feel that same feeling in reverse. There’s now one icon sticking out inelegantly and unharmoniously, and to top it off, it’s their fault, because they put it there! They’ll be tempted to remove it from the launcher again — or not to add it in the first place — even if they really really need to use the app a lot.

Other operating systems don’t put people in that kind of emotional dilemma. Either the OS enforces icon shape consistency for every app, or the shapes are free-form.

@jaggers

App Grid

…My preferred out-of-the-box experience is to only have core apps, which should all have Suru icons, outside of folders - and third party apps with non-Suru icons in folders (I’ll explain below why I think this is also good for usability, rather than purely cosmetic).

I suggest three default folders for the first attempt at this: /Mozilla (Firefox and Thunderbird);

I could be wrong, but I think that even within Thunderbird users, few people would care that it was released by the same organization as Firefox — and care about it so strongly as to want a folder just for those two apps.

@jaggers

The forward slash is important because punctuation comes before letters in alphanumeric ordering, and this forces the folders to be grouped at the start of the app grid, rather than interspersed throughout.

I like the idea of putting folders first. It looks neater, and would almost certainly be faster to use on average.

I don’t think we should have to start folder names with a funny character to achieve that, though. That seems like the sort of thing that should be changed upstream, or else implemented with an extension.

[frederik-f]

With jaggers branch merged in 20 days, all pre installed apps have suru icons
Except firefox, thunderbird and libre office (LO may change also if we ask them)

Personally I have more problems with old looking / not flat icons like for example the Gimp app.
I think that’s also a plus to have this “ah those are my base apps”-feeling.

With modern icons on the panel, I see absolutely no problem with mixing them with suru. Example:

@mpt

Because then users get distracted trying to work out what’s special about the non-squircle ones.

Sorry, with all respect, but I highly doubt that. It’s pretty clear: system/base apps have that squircle. And Firefox is a brand Pretty easy if you ask me. The same applies to windows10, system apps have that symbolic microsoft-goes-flat icons. The rest doesn’t.
I would say, putting for example Firefox (and that’s the ONLY none-suru icon left if you use the minimal install )in that squircle would look totally awkward and people could start to ask why the poor firefox was put in there.

[jaggers]

I note @frederik-f has grouped the Suru and non-Suru icons on the launcher, as I would, so perhaps one answer is for the default launcher to just do that for the sake of tidiness? That would signal to the user that it’s “permitted” for the launcher to be a mix, without looking disorderly on first impression. When you tidy a room, you don’t say “only one kind of thing is allowed in this room,” but you at least arrange the mix of things in a pleasing way (without going as far as putting any of them out of reach if you use them a lot!). I take @mpt 's points about the problems with the Suru web icon being used here, I suppose that was the most “sentimental” and least usability-focussed suggestion - I withdraw it

Mozilla folder: I think thematic is best, I was trying to think of something that wouldn’t be complex to maintain (thematic folders require new apps to default to sensible places and I’m not sure how easy that is?). Also it occurred to me that Windows users will be familiar with this approach. I think really my main sentiment here is the feeling that “some” (tbc) folders at the start of the app grid would help with visual unity and usability, but they could be whatever is most helpful. As with “Mozilla”, the use of “/” was partly me just trying to think what would be easy but of course it’s better if this can be configured rather than forced.

[jyaku]

The gnome-system-monitor (deb) icon still looks horribly out of place.

[frederik-f]

I’m pretty sure that’s a snap

[jyaku]

pretty sure it’s not

amano@amano-desktop:~$ apt list *gnome-system*
Auflistung... Fertig
gnome-system-log/cosmic 3.9.90-6 amd64
gnome-system-log/cosmic 3.9.90-6 i386
gnome-system-monitor/cosmic,now 3.30.0-1 amd64  [installiert]
gnome-system-monitor/cosmic 3.30.0-1 i386
gnome-system-tools/cosmic 3.0.0-6ubuntu1 amd64
gnome-system-tools/cosmic 3.0.0-6ubuntu1 i386
amano@amano-desktop:~$ snap list
Es sind noch keine Snaps installiert. Versuchen Sie »snap install hello-world«.
amano@amano-desktop:~$

[frederik-f]

Maybe you have both installed? Snap and deb?

[jaggers]

Odd, I’ve got a nice Suru icon for System Monitor, which is the same basic concept (green heart monitor on dark background)…

[frederik-f]

There is an icon for sytem monitor

In 18.04 the snap version is using the wrong icon since it has been upgraded to 3.30
There is an issue on the snapcraft forums about that

[didrocks]

@kenvandine any ETA to get this fixed? ^ (ensuring all GNOME snaps are using the Suru icon). I guess it’s the same issue than the one we fixed.

[mozit]

here in snap 18.04 :

[kenvandine]

It’s using the named icon “gnome-system-monitor”. I could patch the desktop file to use “utilities-system-monitor”, is that what you’re suggesting?