The expectation GAP - ubuntu goal and ubuntu today

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hi,

Ive been in and out of this forum… because i was trying to find out why ubuntu feels so… unstable, unreliable and a pain to use (only tried ubuntu24 so far). I’m an experienced linux user and dev…

I can most of the time assume correctly why something in linux is not working. I do it often. The difference is - I do it often because the issues I’m confronted with 95% have to do with my individualization of the OS.

My first issue with ubuntu was during the 2nd step of the installer when I clicked the vision impaired magnifying glass. The magnetization aid messed up the scale of the UI so much - it was impossible to revert exit or continue and forced me to reboot.

Many issues small and big followed. with a cleanly installed version 24

I posted a thread which cost me ca. an hour to formulate correctly and probably 2-3 additional hours to discuss, think about, correct and re-read.

I put in the effort of writing that post - in order to find a way to help and alert the community that there is something fundamentally not in order with ubuntu 24. My main focus is snap - but thats sadly just the tip of the iceberg imo.

But it dawned on me… its not ubuntu which is faulty… its my expectations. I expected a user-friendly easy to use - low maintenance OS which facilitates my work and lets me play a game without any effort every now and then.

I expected the early claims what ubuntu wanted to be… - “a linux for the masses which can take on windows”

this is what the default - vanilla - latest LTS version should offer - and imo. its clearly not.

A linux distro which wanted to solve the UI-mistakes of the nerdy - hard to use - linux distros of that time.

It seems though… ubuntu still uses that claim of being a “user-friendly - beginner OS” but is more interested in being where the money is…

Because what i unexpectedly got was an overcomplicated overly complex, badly documented, anti-intuitive, OS with a hard to use UI and a defensive community behind it.

Imo. Users who take their valueable time to give feedback are either:

  • overwhelmed by the complexity of options to do so and give up because no place seems right
  • scared of
  • completely misunderstood

let me give one example:

Summary

TLDR;
ben40 is actualy taking his valuable time to write about his (meta-)issue… He is a newb and wants to report an issue he has with the steam snap. *so an issue about reporting an issue

he states his issues very clear - there is no need to read between the lines here… apart from the title of the thread - its very clear.

issue 1: why is there no option to give feedback on snap programs where they are obtained?
issue 2:is there an alternative without the need to give personal information (phone)

He also hints at the obvious … bigger issue imo. … “Ubuntu has a bigger percentage of newbies that probably won’t do the mobile verification” … i would wonder if those users would even try to understand where they ended up and not close github - immediatly.

Now… lets check if any of his issues are addressed…

first taker @James-Carroll … hit and miss - starts with claims of understanding the frustration but… then is defensive about the choice.

second - @popey swings but in the completely wrong direction - ignoring the issue and instead turns it around claiming bob40 should be using github to makes devs lives easier.

next @ben40 (whos time so far has been only wasted) shows some gratefullness to be able to use ubuntu … adds some more context to his issues

so… is anyone going to take his issue serious now??

next @eeickmeyer steps in. telling him first of all “nope your have to deal with the way we think it needs to work”

then… … warns ben40 ,for being disrespectfull…

still… no help on any issue… and no one understanding what’s wrong with anything in this thread.

the thread continues with time wasteing and no one actually adressing, acknowledging any of the real issues…

@popey offers to send his small “issue” manually… which … well at least solved something… but really nothing.

If you want - you can ask how this shouldve been solved. But you know what - who cares… I think ben40 is owed an apoligy for the treatment - and a thanks for trying to be helpfull.

aaanyway… my TLDR:

I wanted to change from windows to ubuntu because i thought that was the most logical thing to do when MS is trying to force feed win11 with co-pilot and commercials on the start menu.

but now… i’ve seen ubuntu … I’d rather go to big corp MS and use WSL because at least MS doesnt hide behind a facade its not fullfilling.

late edit: OR maybe I will become an Apple fanboy - the initial “unbloat” and config for dev is tedious and takes a while… but… they do offer a user-friendly & stable linux - I would have to ditch my newly bought 5090 (any takers) which i intended to use for AI software devving … but since i work with LLMs and MacOS is specializing the software and hardware to work rly well with that… Its a very intersting option

PS. let me answer some initial questions you might have:

yes guys… this is completely my own incomplete view of everything… im just a small person… with limited time and a limited view… and yes - i might be completely incorrect.

yes you can defend anything that happens with ubuntu and any choice made thus far - question is should you maybe try to change your perstective instead… and try to understand different views instead of definding those.

yes - i might ve completely misjudged everything in the post of ben40… and… everyone did well there

let me add a questions too anyone reading… and i dont need the answer - but try to answer it for yourself before you post here.

  1. what are you trying to do here… are you trying to make ubuntu better and fullfill its initial claims?
  2. are you going to “hide behind” forum etiquettes (am i being to rude - sorry ) hide behind some other facade instead of actualy adrressing clear issues?
  3. could there be some / alot of truth in my claims - if not - why do you think my perspective is scewed?
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first taker @James-Carroll … hit and miss - starts with claims of understanding the frustration but… then is defensive about the choice.

I’ll speak for myself here but I think this is probably true for others.

I can sympathise with people where stuff doesn’t work as they expect. It’s human to have empathy. I’m sorry for people who have genuine issues with snaps and have spent a significant amount of my life trying to improve that in my own way, but we’re all limited to being a single person with time and skills to consider, not everyone can change everything.

But at the same time, I’m defending something I’ve chosen to spend 6 years of my life on because at this point my snaps are used by hundreds of thousands of people, as are many others, and one persons unfortunate situation doesn’t have more weight just because it’s louder.

Am I supposed to not defend my opinion? Because if I followed what other people told me to, I’d have deleted all my work the past 6 years over trivialities and not helped anyone at all just to satisfy Reddit.

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Is this not?

Every single day for the past half decade, I have read the same opinions over and over again. If it didn’t stop me back then, why would it stop me when things are continually improving.

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let me be clear

1 everything i critique here can be defended…
2 i’m sorry if I offended anyone from the example i picked it was random.

just - if you think there might be some truth in my critique… it could be worth considering

I understand and greatly apreciate your effort @James-Carroll - you have the right intention and a good hearth… I’m just not sure the effort you put in with good intentions are well placed with the current “decision makers” behind ubuntu

Im not saying snaps are bad - I’m saying ubuntu is trying to be something else then its claiming to be…

Im not saying all the effort in this forum is useless (otherwise why would I be writing this)
Im just seeing a lot of time wasting and no clear - solution oriented - issue funneling - support .

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Whatever benefit Canonical gets from me doesn’t sway my opinion much. I’m sensitive to topics about long term direction myself so I get where you’re coming from. And if you pop into the Snapcraft forums, you’ll find I’m also one of their biggest critics.

But I am genuinely, some random guy, who doesn’t even work in tech itself, have no affiliation with Canonical, and do what I do because I genuinely believe it helps normal people, not just corporations. If anything, I’ve won versus Canonical, who are paying the bills for all my storage, bandwidth, development tooling, etc, and leech upon their resources for the benefit of children making memes, which in my usual workplace would be seen as throwing money down the drain.

Snaps are not perfect but the people making them aren’t under the illusion we’re helping some conspiracy, things are difficult, some things are impossible, and we’re often judged against genuinely impossible standards.

I’ll bow out and let other people take over since I’ve said my peace, and again, I’m sorry for people who do have genuine issues, but encouraging people like myself to throw the towel in is not helping Ubuntu, Linux, or anyone, so unless your idea of helping Linux is to spite Canonical for vague reasons, I do genuinely believe in what I do and the business side of things doesn’t sway me.

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and I 100% believe you do - I really mean it when i say I greatly apreciate what you do.

I also believe that if ubuntu would consider to gravitate towards its original goal again - being the linux for the masses - your effort would be much more fullfilling.

my intention is not at all encouraging people like you to stop… quite the oposite tbh. sorry if it seems like it.

I would like honest opinions why you think im wrong/right.

I would like some productive discussions what can be done to address any of the issues.

If im completely wrong and ubuntu is the user-friendly intuitive OS it claims to be - please let me know.

with the forum post example - If you think it was handled perfectly … and ben40 time to write that post was apreciated and led to a constructive result - let me know why

I just would not like to see / read more defensive time wasting.

Imo. the forum here could work great as a feedback funneling pool and offer support where necesarry - but in the current state it doesnt seem like its doing that very efficiently or effectively.

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In my 18 years of using Ubuntu it has always worked and yes in the early days I had more issues because I was new and brought them on myself by doing things like enabling proposed updates and running the dev version of Ubuntu but I knew no better and as soon as I learned that I have had no more issues.

You also have to consider if Canonical did not have a commercial side to make money there would be no money for Ubuntu because everything takes money, there are servers, buildings, people to do development and the list goes on and on.

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Im not claiming cannonical doesnt deserve to earn as much cash as they want - but at least stick to the initial goal of ubuntu in the main LTS version simultaneously.

Ubuntu still has the Image and still rides the marketing claim of “being user-friendly” but absolutely nothing on ubuntu.com actualy has anything resembling a welcome for joe average.
Just scroll through the landing page and check the “use cases” and let me know if anything screams “joe average” to you. :smiley:

If cannonical would be transparent on their divergence of the initial goal of ubuntu - if they would openly claim that they will not follow that initial goal anymore… You wouldnt be reading this.

alternatively - if the latest LTS would be user-friendly and cannonical would do - everything else they want to do - in other versions/branches/distro tastes… you wouldnt be reading this either.

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version 18 which was the last version i intensely used felt more stable and more user-friendly to me. I dont think that ubuntu has improved on the “OS for the masses” since then.

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FWIW I’m just popping in, me and Martijn have had some chats separately in PM and there’s absolutely no drama here, as usual, there’s always more that unites us than separates us.

Also I’m off to bed, I have work in 4 hours. Have fun all.

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cheers mate - and yes - James and I have the same good intentions - we want linux to do well and improve

short edit: I picked the support topic at random (JC was involved in it) and even though I intentionally make it a bit offensive to read in my summary

I’d like to know… honestly… why no one actually adresses his issues. A simple - “Hey thanks for your feedback - for now the feature is still in early stages - we will make sure the team will receive your feedback and hope that the possibility to report snap bugs easily is included in the near future”

In any case - I do think that ben40 couldve left the conversation with a better feeling then the one he had which i imagine was… “being told off and had his time wasted whilest his intention was to increase the value of the product he was using by investing his time”

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I would say this is for the average user, All I did was one google search.

If cannonical would be transparent on their divergence of the initial goal of ubuntu - if they would openly claim that they will not follow that initial goal anymore… You wouldnt be reading this.

I believe they are still following there initial goal if that is to get Ubuntu into the hands of as many people as possible while keeping the Operating system free for personal use.

alternatively - if the latest LTS would be user-friendly and cannonical would do - everything else they want to do - in other versions/branches/distro tastes… you wouldnt be reading this either.

I disagree here Ubuntu is one of the most user friendly linux Operating systems made today.

It is recommended that new users stick with the LTS version and do not upgrade when a new LTS version comes out until the first point release.

I am done with this discussion tonight it is getting late.

Good discussing this with you.

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you proofed what i wrote - that they still use the image of being user-friendly without actualy being it. since the image you posted is a payed commercial.

What I actualy asked… if you look on the website - ubuntu.com - if you see anything on the start page or in the use-cases that resembles that “main goal”

thats not what the initial claim is about - the free distribution was never the issue.

@Wild_Man - i know i’m not making the rules here - but i wrote this post and kindly asked for a few things. Dont just defend and think a bit before you post.

in order to keep this thread short and uncluttered- i’d kindly ask anyone to read carefully and not go into small details - If i’d only had some detail issues - I wouldnt make the effort and write this post. If you are not sure about something you’d like to post - please do some research first.

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thats interesting - I’d like to discuss that further soon - I’m an experienced linux user and I found it very user-unfriendly. I cant imagine any newbie would think differently.

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Thanks for sharing this perspective, Martijn. I’d like to address a few points about my interaction with ben40:

On reading between the lines: You mention there’s no need to read between lines, but ben40 asked a very specific technical question: “why are Canonical projects like the Steam snap using Github and not a inhouse solution like Launchpad?” I answered that directly - explaining the practical reasons why GitHub is used for many projects (developer familiarity, tooling, community expectations). The core question was about platform choice, which I addressed.

On my response being a “miss”: I don’t believe my reply missed the mark. Ben40 had a legitimate technical question about why certain projects use GitHub vs Launchpad, and I provided context about how these decisions are made. When someone asks “why do you use X instead of Y,” explaining the reasoning behind X is a direct answer, not deflection.

On the broader feedback process: I do agree that navigating where and how to report issues can be confusing for newcomers. That’s a valid systemic concern worth discussing. However, the solution isn’t necessarily to abandon platforms where development actually happens, but rather to improve documentation and guidance about the reporting process.

On helping newcomers: When I offered to manually forward ben40’s specific issue, that was genuine help - not a token gesture. Sometimes the most practical solution is direct assistance while we work on systemic improvements.

I appreciate that you’re advocating for better newcomer experiences. That’s important feedback. But I’d suggest the issue isn’t with answering technical questions directly, but rather with how we can better guide people through the complexity of a large, distributed project ecosystem.

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hey @popey - thanks a lot for understanding my intent and actualy take an interest.

I worked in support for several years as 1st, 2nd and backend support and created support microservices. As a dev I worked hand in hand with supporters almost daily - because they are the only ones who can filter the user-feedback and thus provide one of the most valuable info aspects for any software product. (tldr;… i might know what im talking about - but i’d never claim to have all the answers)

The thing about unexperienced new users is: the probability that they do not know what their actual issue is - is pretty high.

The user might have asked a specific question… that does not mean he pinpointed the source of his issue correctly.

ben40 actualy was real precise with his description -

A newbie - clearly and literraly written down - is looking to provide valuable feedback about a snap.

Expectations: The snap - from his point of view was obtained in the launchpad and there is no possibility to provide feedback there

Issue : instead of a feedback possibility where it is intuitively expected he is sent to github… github doesnt work since

  1. is really confusing for someone who is not into those things. AND
  2. he doesnt want to provide his phone number - which is a good thing!!!

Instead of just … giving up right then and there… which imo. most users would do… He actualy invests more time to come here and tries to be helpfull…

Please… let me know what you objectively think about this thread with this context… honestly… how would you feel in his place?

I know you tried to help… but… … Im not asking if you have done the best you could with the possibilities you had - i think you did… But how do you think the actual issue couldve been solved? which actions couldve been taken to report the actual issue? what is the current state of this issue?

actually … these are just a few of the questions that come immediatly … but please do not think these are the only ones… there is a lot that can be learned from examples like this.

Maybe also for a bit more context - whatever you read here from newbies - is the tip of the iceberg - most newbies wont make the effort to even look where they can provide feedback if their initial expectations are not met. you can probably assume for every newbie feedback given here - there are at least 500 newbs with the same issue who do not care to aid in fixing it.

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You actually made me re-read the other thread again since 'I remembered it differently and there is no evidence at all in that thread that he thought “the snap was obtained from launchpad” …

While he did complain about GH and the registration/login process for sure and he surely has a point here, I do not see any comparison or claim that LP should be used instead …

While I personally prefer LP as a long term Ubuntu developer (simply because I am used to it), there have been tons of complaints and asks from the community that we move away from it because “it is to complex to use”.

I do work for Canonical (as you can see by the logo tag the forum puts on my avatar picture (I hate this feature btw, because I usually do not tale here in my function as employee but use it as a community member in my spare time)) and was involved in the internal discussions about moving bits and pieces of our development to GH (this was about 11y ago when we decided where to put snapd source code) , I personally was in the team favoring LP during this discussion but there were two things that put the nail in the coffin in this discussion and triggered the move:

  • constant asks from contributors who are used to GH workflows and use it in their day to day work to make it easier for them to submit changes to our code because LP does make it hard for them
  • constant requests from end users to use GH issues instead of launchpad bugs because the LP UI and LP workflow was cryptic to them

So this change was based on user requests and an analysis of these requests showed a clear tendency towards using GH, it also showed that more people in these requests would be willing to report or contribute something through GH if we switched …

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Hey Ogra - thanks for that info - and yes you might be right that my assumption on that detail is incorrect.

The core of my “critque” here though is not if that “detail of his issue was identified and dealt with” - this couldve been solved by an easy follow-up question after identifying his issue.

The core of this example is the defensiveness of experts to details of the post - without seeing the actual issue - A new user wants to provide feedback and is not able to do so. + After he was not able to do so - he tries to help to fix that and eplains his issue here… Where he kinda gets help after a lot of effort for his single case - but the actual issue was not identified:

There is no easy way to provide feedback on snaps which are obtained through a functionality provided in ubuntu.

For the case he obtained the snap somewhere else…

1st why would he expect a feedback functionality in ubuntu LP
but also… 2nd… then it wouldve been an easy answer to his thread - sorry that functionality is not provided by us -

I never heard of LP and… i’m not fammiliar with snaps from '24… and… I dont really want to be - I for example - would like - to be involved in a transparent process which allows new ubuntu users to provide easy to digest feedback.

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just a thought… but… its so easy to setup a small, simple pre-digestion LLM to identify new-user issues with a simple 2-3 QA dialogue. before reporting somewhere in a communication popup in ubuntu… wouldnt that be something that could hugely increase painpoint identification?

And thats just… one of many ideas that one might consider after reading this rn.

A small open source LLM to help in discourse might be usefull.

The thing is … I see a lot of… “no you cant help” - “no you dont have that correct”

and seldomly a “thanks for your feedback” and “we might consider to actualy change this”

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And it is still under discussion how to handle this, the snap ecosystem is a lot closer to the iOS or android app stores than to a distros package archive, everyone can make software available through it and is allowed to provide their own way of reporting issues/bugs that suit their workflow (FWIW, many of my own snaps simply have a mailto::// link in the bug reporting metadata so people clicking it simply get a window of their preferred mail app with pre-filled subject and target address) and we do not really want to force anyone to have to use a specific bug tracking system …

That said, there is the other side, where snaps are actually created or at least maintained by Canonical and it is rather clear that these should use some central place, but a decision here is still outstanding …

See these threads below, it has come up way more often than the forum suggests though (and in other places like mailing lists etc)

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thats not helpfull to the devs behind snap at all though… is there no 5x star eval the the snap-store + comment / feedback form ?

i normal average user doesnt want to create a bug report - the best you can hope for is a comment: “its terrible” and give a one star review.

But if many users do that - this is a call to action for devs.

this brings me back to my initial claim - ubuntu should be an user-friendly - linux for the masses… why is everyone thinking you’re dealing with devs? :smiley:

I understand you’re trying to serve everyone their favourit dinner with ubuntu… perfect for devs, for cloud providers for companies, for enterprises, for mining companies and deep see monster crakens… but … stop claiming the main vanilla ubuntu is a user-friendly ubuntu for the masses when you do that please! Because you are creating unmet expectations

I switched to ubuntu because i believed that claim still counts - and as experienced user - i restarted the installer 3 times because i was met with bugs and unclarity.

after the installation… it was unclear which UI to pick - which store to use - how to create a “dock/taskbar shortcut”.

I had to boot sign my nvidia drivers or was forced to disable safe boot instead… My NTFS drives where not recognized and not automatically mounts…

and yes - sure - this might be accidental… small issues… but… i dont think so…

o ye… i had to … switch to max power - instead of eco… for my nvidia card to work…

This was all so bloody annoying and a waste of time… and… I was just surprised and disapointed… and worried… that a distro that claims to be user-friendly for newbs… was such a hassle to me (as self claimed expert user)