Is ubuntu-software going to be remove for snap:snap-store?

[fthx]

Most of them don’t use Linux at all, they don’t even know it does exist.
Let’s consider, outside of my brain, Android. You would agree that it’s not geek-designed but does tell users if some apps have to / were updated. No need to display the changelogs… A simple GNOME notification is not a problem for them : they just don’t care about that, the notification disappears and end of the story.

[popey]

@fthx

Most of them don’t use Linux at all, they don’t even know it does exist.

I’m talking about the them who do, who are running Linux already, not the great pile of potential Linux users.

@fthx

Let’s consider, outside of my brain, Android. You would agree that it’s not geek-designed but does tell users if some apps have to / were updated. No need to display the changelogs… A simple GNOME notification is not a problem for them : they just don’t care about that, the notification disappears and end of the story.

So do we. GNOME Software pops up a dialog to suggest the user should do their updates.

[fthx]

Ah ok, sorry I didn’t understand that snaps will be included in current updates notifications, I believed snaps will do silent updates in Focal.

[popey]

Actually both. If you happen to see it, then you’ll be able press the button to update. But if you miss it, you’d get automatically updated by default. See also my previous comments about deferring updates. If you choose to defer updates for 60 days for example, you’ll keep getting the notifications in GNOME Software, and can pick when to install them, but the default is indeed auto update.

[fthx]

Will the deb packages be auto-updated too ? I know I can choose to auto-update security updates (I did that for my wife who belongs to them, I don’t remember if it’s default) but I do not have any option to do the same for regular updates. If i was one of them, I won’t understand why some are and some aren’t updated automatically.

[popey]

We have been auto-updating debs for years now via unattended-upgrades for at least security updates.

[jyaku]

I switched to Focal yesterday and still have GNOME software as the default. Should that have switched to the Snap Store automatically (the update-manager installed the focal debs and then froze while starting fiddling with the snaps) or is the transition yet to be done?

[chanath]

@popey

Chromium, Firefox and LibreOffice fall more into that category. They are updated often, and sometimes have security issues which need delivering to users quickly.

Chromium, Firefox and LibreOffice are self contained apps by themselves and can be placed anywhere, and not at all in the root. They also can be updated by replacing the contents of the relevant chromium, firefox or libreoffice folder, that is, if the user wants that and when. (The user here is the standard Linux user, not the click-and-shoot one.)

I understand that, you are considering as user, someone like those who use Android, Windows – the click and shoot. But, even the standard Windows users, don’t want auto-upgrades.

[popey]

@chanath

Chromium, Firefox and LibreOffice are self contained apps by themselves and can be placed anywhere, and not at all in the root. They also can be updated by replacing the contents of the relevant chromium, firefox or libreoffice folder, that is, if the user wants that and when. (The user here is the standard Linux user, not the click-and-shoot one.)

Encouraging users to download random zips/tarballs, and unpack and run the contents is not a good security story.

[seb128]

@fthx

• I sometimes use a hot spot with slow wifi rate and I don’t want to wait some dozens of minutes that snapd updates all his children ;
• it may be a good point to know what apps are updated (because bugs happen in new versions too – aren’t they ? – and it could be smart to advertise updates) ;
• the underground question is whether snap apps do propose two versions LTS-security-stability or not, like Firefox ESR does e.g. ;

• Why would you have to wait? Snap work in background, if the internet is not good enough or you disconnect before it’s done then it will continue later and during this time your system/snaps are normally usable

• Having a way to know what applications got updated/when and what change the update include would be nice. That’s a valid improvement request.
  @mpt do we have some design around how snaps updates should be communicated to users? SoftwareUpdates - Ubuntu Wiki doesn’t seem to mention snaps at all

  That’s a different than the snap-store as a deb though, the discussion should be moved to a new topic and/or launchpad.

• channels can be used for that, firefox does exactly that, see Install firefox on Linux | Snap Store which has a ‘stable/esr’ channel

[chanath]

@popey

Encouraging users to download random zips/tarballs, and unpack and run the contents is not a good security story.

If these “random zips/tarballs” are from their well known original developers such as Chromium, Firefox or LibreOffice? If they produce the app, they must be trustworthy, don’t you think so? And, these (self-contained) apps work in every known Linux distro without fail, after all.

A typical Linux user is someone, who explore and experiment.

[popey]

@chanath

If these “random zips/tarballs” are from their well known original developers such as Chromium, Firefox or LibreOffice? If they produce the app, they must be trustworthy, don’t you think so? And, these (self-contained) apps work in every known Linux distro without fail, after all.

Again, misunderstanding my point. It’s not that Chromium, Firefox or LibreOffice are untrustworthy. It’s cementing the idea in people’s heads that it’s okay to go and download random binaries. “We’ll I did it for Firefox, so it must be okay” as a pattern. So no, just because one application may be considered trustworthy by some, does not make all applications available trustworthy.

For example a random binaries downloaded from the web have no sandboxing. The application may exfiltrate the users ssh keys, gpg keys or other important security information. This is not a path we want users to be sent down.

@chanath

A typical Linux user is someone, who explore and experiment.

Some might, but I wouldn’t generalise in that way. Many have been given Linux on their desktop by their organisation IT function. As such they would not be charaterised as ‘exploring and experiment’ but just a simple user.

Stop falling into the trap of “I do this, therefore everyone does this”. It’s clearly not the case.

[chanath]

@popey

Stop falling into the trap of “I do this, therefore everyone does this”. It’s clearly not the case.

That’s exactly what I am trying to say. Automatic updates are good enough for click and shoot guys, while check and update is good for those, who have some interest in the system they use. A typical Linux user is someone, who explore and experiment. Otherwise, s/he is not.

[popey]

As previously mentioned, we have the capability for users to defer updates, and take control over when their applications update - or “check and update” as you call them. That’s possible.

[chanath]

That’s excellent. But, the user should be encouraged to explore and experiment, even make mistakes, otherwise the interest in Linux would die away. There are enough click-and-shoot OSs around.

[seb128]

Those discussions are quite off topic from the original question, would be best to stop there…

[mpt]

@seb128

Having a way to know what applications got updated/when and what change the update include would be nice. That’s a valid improvement request. @mpt do we have some design around how snaps updates should be communicated to users? SoftwareUpdates - Ubuntu Wiki doesn’t seem to mention snaps at all

The settings wireframe on that page includes text that @oSoMoN has added in Focal: “Snap package updates are checked routinely and installed automatically.”

Ideally, I think, that text would be dynamic to summarise your current settings (for example, “Snap package updates are checked Mondays and Fridays.” or “Snap package updates are checked five times a week.”). And it would be followed by a “Details…” button, which would open a secondary dialog for controlling the schedule as well as listing recent updates.

Sometimes I design things in the hope that someone will implement them someday. I haven’t had time to do that with this dialog.

But if anyone here is interested, a simple first step — useful and releasable by itself — would be to add a caption below the new label, of the form “Last check: Yesterday 16:27”. If someone submits a merge proposal to do that, then I’ll design the next bit.

[nathanael-naeri]

@popey

As I understand it there will be a migration, but that might not be done yet. Same applies for the others going snap->deb.

Three weeks later, it does not seem to be the case. I still have the snap versions of gnome-{calculator,logs,characters} alongside their deb versions, and I still have the deb version of gnome-software instead of the snap-store snap.

A user in the #ubuntu+1 channel confirmed that a fresh install of the development release only features the deb versions of gnome-{calculator,logs,characters} (not their snap versions), and features the snap-store snap (alongside the gnome-software deb).

We are past UserInterfaceFreeze, so I’m starting to suspect that users of older installs of the development release are supposed to perform some additional operation besides the regular apt-get dist-upgrade. It’s fine by me, I just have no idea what.

I’ve filled bug 1868409 on Launchpad. Hopefully someone other there or on this thread can shed a light on that matter?

[pakatonobr]

@chanath

But, even the standard Windows users, don’t want auto-upgrades.

In fact, Windows users do not want auto updates that prevent them from using the system. The Windows 10 automatic update system is intrusive and forced, unlike the existing system in Ubuntu, so I don’t think it’s wise to compare.

[anon66904900]

I have a question: When there is a substitution for the Snap format, will there not be a single store to install DEBs, Snaps and Flatpaks?