When a person comes here for the first time they are generally directed here : Start here
Nothing within that page shows a clear path to the support and help template.That template makes helping so much easier by giving the OP a guide to supplying the proper information that can help them solve their problem.Nothing within the bullet points of Start here provides a clear path to that template.For most it’s nothing more than a revolving door of links that brings you back to Start here.
I’ll wait for others to respond, as I doubt my usage of sites like this is atypical (I tend to view a site for hours over days in order to get a ‘feel’ of the place, before ever allowing myself to create anything there).
The bottom of that page could include and item like
Have an issue you want help with right now?
- Right Click the “Support and Help” category (top left) and open in a new tab (or just click it, but this page will be replaced) and you’ll see a “New Topic” option near the top right. Clicking that will start a new topic in this area, and will populate your question with the support template. Use this template text to make a useful question, removing anything that doesn’t apply, and adding details that apply to your situation.
This is an initial rough response, will need editing almost certainly including word changes etc; appropriate/helpful or not??
Those aren’t bullet points.
They expand into additional information when you click them.
The point of that page is to offramp new users to already-existing answers to common questions, so most don’t need to ask a question in the first place.
If you follow the links withing those detail sections, and still need to ask a question, the template will be pre-filled with appropriate tags.
Specific suggestions to improve the help tree are welcome. I have always considered it a living document, adapting and changing and improving.
https://symbolsdb.com/bullet-point-symbol
Those are bullets points,but I’m not even going to get into that.
That obviously doesn’t work a good portion of the time as many are posting questions regardless.
And this brings us to the very point I’m trying to make,people have to follow several links to get to that point.
And that’s what I’m trying to do.The support and help template should be easily visible to the newcomer and not buried in the tree.Think about how many times folks who want to help have to ask the OP for the basic info because the OP didn’t know the template even existed until pointed out after the fact.That template should be visible after clicking on Start here not buried in several links.Simply put the tree needs to be trimmed.
Still not clear what you are suggesting as an alternative or solution.
Tell us your vision for how to handle or direct new users.
Please understand, this post isn’t meant to offend anyone in any way. Just my 2 cents worth.
There is a very helpful page at Support and Help posting guide
(Wow…I had to hop through about 3 to 6 pages to even find that page)
IMHO, if a “new user” finds that page, they already found where to post their help questions. Maybe put a link to that Support and Help posting guide somewhere near the beginning of the “Start Here”.
Something that helped me as a new user was being able to find specific command’s to gather the needed information to try, then to include those output’s when posting and using the provided template.
Of course that was on UbuntuForums.org
Maybe include basic commands into the template to gather the respective info requested in the template. Also provide a link to the template somewhere in the “start Here” section. (just my 2 cent suggestion)
Here on discourse, there is only one command mentioned in the template.
Example:
The more experienced know’s the Desktop Environment. A “new user” more than likely doesn’t know what is meant by “desktop environment” as provided by the example given in the template, and that same template doesn’t mention how to find it.
It leave’s the one requesting help waiting for however long it takes for someone to get to their inquiry. Or trying to filter through what to “try” next.
There is, however, a link at the bottom of the “new topic” help request post editor thingy. But that’s at the bottom. It’s “after” everything that is “example’s only”.
Even here…no command to help us know where the “new user” is at in “trying things”…
Firstly, all constructive feedback and criticism about how our Discourse functions is welcome here.
You, the users, are what makes this community great.
Second, the support template is not an obligation, only a recommendation.
Some use it, others do not.
We do not want to force users to fill out fields because, for example, an experienced user may not need to use the template.
Obviously, for new or less experienced users we think the template provides an excellent means of conveying the relevant information in a Discourse-friendly format that will enable those who want to help to get to the information quickly and directly.
But, again, we need to stress it is not an obligation.
Thirdly, we will review the template, its positioning in the Start here section as well as possible commands to include in the template itself.
Thank you all for making our Discourse the best ever, it is very much appreciated.
I second the suggestion by @Norm24 .
I think that the idea from @guiverc is good, although I’d say that it doesn’t need the fine detail of how to go about it (“right-click” etc.), especially as not everyone wants to start a new tab, and many people use a touch-screen to access the site. Generally, people technical enough to use Linux are technical enough to know their way around a browser.
Side note:
Correct. The symbol is often used as a bullet point (a better name for this specific symbol is “caret”), but because the items expand and contract, they have a different name. To muddy the waters, there are multiple names, so choose whichever you prefer from accordion, collapsible section, collapsible list, expansion panel, and toggle pane. Or the technical HTML name, disclosure widget. (This isn’t even a comprehensive list of names!) I personally prefer “accordion”.
I think I’m seeing two issues here. And I’m open to being quite wrong about this.
Agreed. Response is that we have a baby vs. bathwater question. Let’s put out heads together and keep the good elements. I am fully open to jettisoning elements that aren’t working.
The first is the whole concept of the help-tree-page (“start here”) we developed in late 2024. The structure was intended to seem familiar to folks migrating from UbuntuForums.
A big problem at both UbuntuForums (was) and AskUbuntu (are) new folks asking the same common questions over and over and over. Since we don’t have a “duplicate” feature like AskUbuntu, our thought was to off-ramp the common questions to the actual documentation and official tutorials, so they find their authoritative answer before laboriously typing out their question.
(I think this element is working. We don’t have a huge number of common duplicates. We do have a trickle, but it’s not the flood of common dupes that AskUbuntu gets).
The second is the use of tags in questions.
These were intended to make questions easier to locate by volunteers who specialize in the arcane. For example: Network troubleshooting.
However, then we were asking user to fill in tags, which some do and some don’t. So the proliferation of accordions and complexity, mostly to pre-fill tags.
(I think this element is not working well. But I lack data to make a case for it)
Bullets, carets, tree, etc. isn’t important.
What is important is the “tree” or whatever you want to call it is over populated and needs to be thinned out and I personally consider the support template the single most useful thing within that “list” to both the new user and the person attempting to help.The template should be more prominent and on the first page,not buried under several links. Just my opinion, take it or leave it.
Also (not certain if this is already mentioned)
In that template, I believe it would help to example when to use “code tags” “backticks” “quotes” "images” etc. (I find myself having a hard time transitioning from the ways we did on the forums)
I learned only recently that you can swap between Markdown, where you have to know backticks and so forth, and the rich text editor, where you don’t!
I would like to see that mentioned somewhere.
To swap between the two, you press the M↓A button on the left of the toolbar (screenshot below).
To add code blocks you can still use backticks in the rich text editor.
The two easiest ways to add them, however, remain the same.
Either use the </> icon in the composer or Ctrl+E on the keyboard.
But, you do not need both (and that just makes a mess anyway).
The Discourse software is constantly evolving and I do not always have the time to post an announcement about every new feature.
Please refer to the Meta Discourse documentation:
https://meta.discourse.org/t/introducing-our-new-composer-making-writing-on-discourse-easier-than-ever/369779
Decided to revisit this as it still seems that a good amount of people posting are not using the template and when many do they are simply cutting and pasting it as is and adding their info on top which can be confusing.It’s still three clicks to get to the template from start here also.
Another thing I’ve noticed which is prevalent is many posts that require output many are not using code tags Preformatted text which makes reading output difficult.Again not easily known or seen by a newcomer unless reminded by or fixed by a mod.
Listen I get it that the folks here running the joint don’t have a bunch of time but if we want newcomers to embrace Ubuntu it’s got to be a little better flowing than what it currently is.
We are in the process of discussing a more streamlined and reorganized sub-category for the Support and Help section that would include things like the template, guides etc.
Bear in mind the template is completely optional. Users are under no obligation to take advantage of it. Some do, others do not.
As far as preformatted text is concerned, we could, in theory, add that to the template.
Something along the lines of Please paste your logs here:
some log output
But for long or complex output it might make things look very cluttered and daunting for users to actually find useful.
We think the better way is to provide clear instructions and keep templates as simple as possible to encourage completion.
Thanks for the feedback, it is appreciated.
Reminder: Whoever redesigns or rewrites the gateway to the Support and Help category will be a fellow volunteer.
It almost certainly WON’T be a Canonical employee. Community support is community-driven.
Folks willing to do the work are the folks who get to make the decisions.
So who else besides me is willing to compile and deconflict all these ideas, and draw up a design concept?
All good points that are being discussed please understand it takes time to get things done.
Again thank you.
Wild_Man
I would like to point something out that seems to me to be the cornerstone of this or any other community; namely, that we educate and inform each other.
Our combined knowledge and experience is there for sharing and passing on to the next user, the next moderator, the next generation even.
The goal of educating and informing is a shared responsibility; you do not need to be a moderator to guide people in the right direction.
If you see a user not filling in the template correctly, gently point it out.
If you see someone not using code tags, reply and explain to them how to use them and why it is important.
If you see issues with posts and topics but do not feel in the right frame of mind to deal with it, flag it and let the moderators handle it.
We do our best but our eyes cannot be everywhere at once.
You, the community, can also help moderate our Discourse and make it even better.